You Don't Have to Finish What You Start: A 4-3-9-3 Kolbe A Index, Unpacked | Private Sessions

You shouldn't finish everything you start. Start new ideas. If you lose interest in them and they fall by the wayside, that's fine.

It doesn't bring me a whole lot of joy, David. I'll tell you. I'm not real happy doing it.

Meet Jenna. She's chief of staff at a big public agency and a mom of two who has more ideas than she can finish. She spends her days immersed in data and building a stronger neighborhood when she gets home. Today, I'm giving her permission to lean on her husband more and not to feel like she has to finish everything she starts.

You are the most important person in the room now, but they don't necessarily know it.

I want to figure out how to take that stress off of me. It provides me a lot of joy to come up with a party idea and plan the party, but I don't have the joy when it's about remembering the knife or the cake. It was liberating to hear that I don't have to finish everything that I start.

We're talking about what you do when you have the freedom to be yourself, not what you're doing because you have to. So there's your Kolbe result, and what we're talking about is the way you take action. They're not better or worse than somebody else's. They're just different. They just describe your way of taking action. I know your Kolbe result, your Natural Advantage, your full four numbers, and all the description that goes with it. So to me, it's not surprising that you would see an opportunity or a problem or a need and say, "I think I should jump in and take that challenge on." Your Natural Advantage—the phrase that we use—is you're an idea-generating powerhouse. So it's so natural for you to see some stuff in front of you and just say, "Oh, we could do this, and we can do that, and we should try out this. Let's do this experiment. And you know what? If it doesn't work, we'll learn from it." That's very natural for somebody like you who leads with what we call the Quick Start. So you initiate the problem-solving process by coming up with ideas, thinking about what-ifs, what experiments can we do. And that could be "we collectively," or it could be you specifically as an individual. That's who you are. That's always been who you are. Can you think back to before your last couple of jobs, like, "Oh yeah, I was doing that back then too"?

Oh, absolutely. Even as a kid.

What kinds of things as a kid do you remember?

One of my best friends in high school and I were really frustrated that we didn't have a recycling program at our school, so we came up with a plan to just go schedule a meeting with the superintendent of the school district and say, "Hey, we really need to have recycling at our school," and we just made it happen.

Did it happen?

Yes, it did.

Oh, I love it. That's the kind of thing where it's just, "Hey, nobody's doing this. Let's just do it." That's that idea-generating powerhouse kind of energy that you have. But the Natural Advantage is just one small part. It's sometimes the thing that is most noticeable in somebody. So I would also think, with you, the people who work with you would hear me say this and they'd immediately start nodding their heads going, "Yep, that's Jenna. As long as I've known her, she's been doing that." The school stuff—but same thing at work. When somebody else says, "No, it can't be done," or,"We've done it this way for a long time, so we're going to stick with it," that's all the more reason for you to say,"Oh, we've done it the same way for a long time? Well, then let's do it a little differently and see if we can make things even better."

Even if it isn't broken, it can still be better.

But the other parts of your Kolbe Index I want to talk about too. I want to make sure that people—and you—understand the full context. So there's your Kolbe result, and what we're talking about is the way you take action. Your results in the four what we call Action Modes—they're not better or worse than somebody else's. They're just different. They just describe your way of taking action and problem-solving. A lot of people will hear that and think, "Well, Jenna must be an extrovert." And I don't know—maybe you are an extrovert. But what I know about Kolbe is somebody who's coming up with new ideas and "Hey, let's just try this out" and going to the superintendent and saying,"Let's do recycling differently"—that doesn't necessarily mean that you are a people person who gets energy by interacting with others. Your approach to that might be, "This is my idea. I'm going to do it all on my own. I don't necessarily want to talk to other people about it unless I need to get them roped in." So they're different. That's kind of the setup. Do you have any questions about that? I want to make sure it's understandable. It's kind of new stuff.

No, that's helpful. It makes a lot of sense that individuals... I might want to really compare results on each other to help paint the full picture of who I am as a human.

Yeah.

[PROMO] Millions of people have discovered their natural way of taking action. What's yours? Go to kolbe.com and take the Kolbe A Index to find out.

So tell us a little bit about you. I've read some stuff about you. I know you're currently working in state government. So tell me about that, and how did you get there?

I'm currently with the state health agency, and it's been a really great learning experience—really being entrenched in the day-to-day of what it is to be in public health, watching for trends in disease, in immunizations, looking at what's going on with water safety, and just the safety net that is public health across the state. It's been a great learning experience. My background is not public health. I know many people have public health degrees. My background really is in the community side of things, working on the ground in community on building strong families through youth programs, through family programs, youth basketball programs, summer camps. But really my transition into public health came because I've been really interested in health interventions in local neighborhoods. So how do we meet people where they are in their own neighborhood to build the healthiest community possible, to get the health outcomes that people deserve to live the longest and happiest lives possible. So it's been a really interesting career so far.

Okay, so the other parts of the Kolbe result. We've talked about your Quick Start, which is the idea-generating powerhouse for you. The next one let's talk about is your Fact Finder. Fact Finder is how we deal with gathering and sharing information, data. So your number in this one is a four. All the results, we put in a number from 1 to 10. A 10 means you really initiate action with that, so your number in Quick Start is a nine—you're really toward that end of the spectrum in terms of generating ideas and doing experiments. Your four in Fact Finder means you're kind of closer to the middle. So you're somebody who explains stuff without huge amounts of data and information. If you're, say, a one or a two in Fact Finder, you're somebody who really just is a couple of bullet points, paints a very broad picture, rather than getting down into the specifics. So you're in that mid-range, trending a little bit toward the less data and information rather than more data and information. Does that resonate with you?

It does. And it's helpful to know that they're not absolutes—that it is like a range. So thank you.

Yeah. And I'll also note that a lot of times, depending on what you're doing professionally and otherwise, sometimes it might not resonate—and it sounds like it does with you. But sometimes we're in a position where, oh my gosh, I am required to provide so much data and information. You might be doing that all day, every day. So if I were to say to you, "Oh, you generally are on the less information side," you might think, "That's crazy, because I'm doing it all day long." We're talking about what you do when you have the freedom to be yourself, not what you're doing because you have to. So keep that in mind as we talk about all of these. Same thing with your idea generation and experimentation. I can say that's who you are. That doesn't mean you're getting the chance to do it all the time.

Mm-hmm.

So it could be like, "Well, yeah, I relate to it, but I don't feel like I'm getting to do it as much as I naturally would." And there are also different parts of your life. There's what you do in your day job, there's what you do in your personal life. And even professionally we can have lots of things going at one time. So all things to keep in mind. With your Fact Finder, I would just guess a little bit—in terms of how it applies to your job, lots of government jobs there's a ton of data that's required. Do you have to deal with a lot of data?

I do, yes. And in public health, there's a lot of data to understand—the specifics of the data sources, where they're coming from, how we're categorizing it. It's complex.

Okay, and I want to take off on that—the complex part. That's an area where I also want to make the distinction between conative and cognitive. So complex data is a cognitive challenge. There can just be so much, and it can be difficult to understand what it's telling us, because data can tell a story. That's on the cognitive side. So when I say you're a four in Fact Finder, it's not saying you don't have a good cognitive strength in understanding a lot of information. It's just that your natural thing isn't to gather more and more and more, like a nine in Fact Finder would. So I want to make sure you and anybody else who's listening doesn't think, "Oh, gosh, David said Jenna is kind of mediocre when it comes to understanding data." Not understanding. That's not what we're talking about. But I'm curious—do you feel stressed sometimes where, fine, I'm a four, I accommodate that need for data, but do you feel like there are times where you need to do it a lot more than is natural for you? Like, have more data, share it, communicate it?

The things I have to spend time on when I'm doing the data work—like today we were just working on our annual plan for a grant, and really digging into what are our outcomes, what are the activities, what are the measures that we're going to use on a regular basis. It's complex stuff. I know the flow of it. I can spend some focus time to really lean into it and understand it. Like, the cognitive piece I can do.

Yep.

But it doesn't bring me a whole lot of joy, David. I'll tell you. I'm not real happy doing it. I have to do it as part of my job.

Yep.

But it's not when I'm happiest, I'll tell you that.

I totally get that. As a consumer of what your agency does, I'm very glad to see that you're there. And I don't want to pick on an agency or the government. A lot of times, though, organizations that do deal with lots of fact-intensive, data-intensive problems—and public health is one of those—they can tend to be dominated by initiating Fact Finders. By the way, I'm not picking on initiating Fact Finders. I am one. I'm an eight in Fact Finder, so I can spend lots of time doing more research and sharing it with you way beyond the point of where it's helpful. But I'm glad you're there. Because when those organizations—if they become dominated by people who are initiating Fact Finders—they start communicating in a way that really only helps people like them. They start giving so much information, and they lose sight. It's not even sight, because that's almost like a cognitive piece. It's not that they aren't smart about it. It's just their way of doing it is,"Oh, let me give you more information." And at some point, lots of people in the general public are like, "Yeah, I don't need any more information. I actually need a little bit less. I need to be able to focus on the key things and not be distracted by the things that really aren't as important. You made your case. Let's just move on." You're somebody who will naturally help bridge those differences between people on opposite ends of that spectrum, because you do have that, "Hey, let me explain it to you without overwhelming you with information." So I hope that when it's not bringing you joy, one of the things you can tell yourself that's true is hopefully it can give you a sense of accomplishment even if it isn't natural for you—because you're playing such an important role in that data gathering and sharing process where you cut through it and get out the more streamlined version of it. That's important. And I hope you find times—and that'll probably give you joy when you can focus more on that—where, "Hey, how can I weed through some of this stuff and get out the right information, the most important parts that are going to tell the story we need to tell, convince people of whatever it is that they might need to be hearing about?" So that's Fact Finder. Any questions before I move on?

No, that's helpful. And I'll add on to say I oversee communications for our organization, and I find a lot of joy in that—taking all of the research and the information from the scientists and our epidemiologists and condensing it down into digestible bits for the public and helping to craft a press release, if you will.

Oh, good.

I think that's a lot of fun. So it's a good point.

Well, that's great. And that's a very natural thing for somebody with your Fact Finder talent to do—you're distilling it down or condensing it into the key parts. All right. Next, let's talk about how you deal with systems, structure, organization. So that's what we call Follow Thru. You're adaptable. You have this great strength for pivoting, for figuring out where you can... Sometimes it's shortcuts. Sometimes it's cutting through bureaucracy. And I would say that to somebody who's not in a government role. I know bureaucracy is something that is very closely associated with government. But you have this strength in cutting through a lot of that stuff, finding those streamlined ways. So I talked about streamlining data—that's really about figuring out what's the core information that really is important. Streamlining plans and systems—you'll make them shorter, but yeah, you will just find shortcuts. If there's a 12-step plan and you get to step six and you realize,"You know what, I think these next..." especially if you've done it once or twice, and then you realize,"I can skip forward and get to where we need to be"—that's what you're going to do. That's very natural for you. Now, I mentioned bureaucracy, and you are in a government role. Sometimes I'm just going to say my guess is you'll need to take a deep breath. I'm not one to beat up on government systems. I've worked in the government in a very different role than you before. One of the good reasons they build bureaucracy is they do need to minimize the downside of things. They need to minimize catastrophic failure. And public health is certainly one of those areas. It's not okay to say, "Well, hey, we have this 12-step plan to reduce the risk of communicable disease, and Jenna thinks we can skip half of them, so let's just skip half of them despite the fact that we've been working on these for 20 years." And I know you wouldn't advocate for that kind of shortcutting of a process.

Exactly.

But that doesn't mean it's easy to live within necessarily, when you're the person at the other end of the spectrum. And you're nodding some, so I'm thinking maybe you've dealt with some of that. Is that true?

Yes. There are areas where there's bureaucracy, and I can tell the redundancy of how we're including different experts or stakeholders in a process, and it's very clear why the bureaucracy exists—and that it ensures continuity of those best practices that are evidence-based. So I see those, and I'm very grateful that we have the folks that love that kind of work doing that work. And then there are other systems where there are bureaucracies that feel like there are barriers for the sake of barriers, and I struggle to figure out how to navigate a policy or initiative forward. And that can become frustrating.

Yeah. So it is both sides of that coin. Well, one suggestion I can make there is—and let's not call them bureaucracies, because that is a kind of negatively laden word. Let's just say systems that are in place. When you can communicate to somebody you're working with, "Hey, I understand this system is very complex, very built out, and very rigid. There's not room for changing this one up so much. But this one, on the other hand, serves a different purpose, and it's also very complex and built up and maybe rigid, but it doesn't serve the same purpose." So my example would be using public health. If there's a system for testing communicable diseases in a lab—well, there better be some really rigid systems in place so that bad things don't happen. You know, it doesn't escape, or the testing isn't ruined because there's some contamination. And frankly, you probably shouldn't be running that lab day-to-day.

I would never apply for that job.

Yeah, that's probably not the right role for you. And also, you're not going to go into that situation and say, "Hey, this system is overly bureaucratic. Let's just strip it down. Let's try something else out." That would be counterproductive. But if you're talking about something else—like you talked about doing communication pieces—communication pieces, there probably is more room for latitude. Communication changes over time. The world uses different language, responds to different methods of communication. So there's not just the ability, but really there's more need to try things out, to experiment, to do things differently. But if you can help people understand why you're changing up a system, they might be more willing to listen and to say, "Oh, okay, I get it. I see why most of the time you wouldn't be advocating to do things differently, but this one, it's okay for you to do it." Even if naturally they would want to stick with what's already there rather than changing it up. And the change is really your Quick Start. That's the experimenting. It's the adaptable part of you with this three in Follow Thru—it doesn't have to be planned and systematic. Well, here's another thing for you with this. You shouldn't finish everything you start.

Hmm.

That is not advice you've probably heard very often.

No.

By the way, I am a two in Follow Thru, so I'm very similar to you in this regard. And I also initiate in Quick Start. So with you—especially with your combination—you're going to have all kinds of ideas that you generate.

Mm-hmm.

And you're going to start some of them. Some of them you just have because you're driving down the road and this thing pops into your head, and it doesn't go anywhere. Like, by the time you get to work, it's gone. Either you forgot about it, or you realized, "Yeah, that sounded kind of fun, but I don't think it's worthwhile." Some of the things you'll start, those ideas, but you won't finish them. And that's quite all right. You don't have a need to. Some people, like nines in Follow Thru, really have a need to bring closure to things—an internal drive to bring closure to things, whether it's the smart thing to do or whether it needs to happen outside of them is a different story. But with you, you don't have to finish everything. Start new ideas, and if you lose interest in them and they fall by the wayside, that's fine. Communication-wise, you may need to communicate that to other people. You'll need to figure out if it's something that you started and now a bunch of other people are on board and working on, and you just drop it all of a sudden. That can create some other issues with those other people.

Absolutely.

But if you communicate it ahead of time... And actually, this is one thing I'd suggest, especially when you're in a leadership role on projects. When you're in a leadership role, you typically—not always—will have more ability to operate in the way to be free to be yourself. So what that'll look like for you is you'll have ideas, "Let's try this out. We don't have to have a whole big plan and system ahead of time. We can just dabble in it, see what's working, and then move from there, and then add to it as we go." But as I was saying, you might not finish all those things. You'll start them and not finish them. So be a little careful of that with the other people, and communicate which of those ideas are the things that you're not committed to finishing, so that they'll also understand. Because I see a lot of people working with somebody with your Kolbe result, and they think, "Well, every time Jenna says,'Let's try this out,'" they're like, "Okay, you got it." Especially if you're the boss, they're thinking this is an order. "All right. I'm going to do it. I'm going to work nights and weekends." And then they come back in a few days and you're saying, "Well, yeah, that wasn't really working, so never mind." And they're totally blindsided. But if you tell them ahead of time, "Hey, this is something that I think shows a lot of promise. I want to try it out. Let's dabble in it for a little bit, but I'm not committing that this is going to be something we're going to do for the next six months or we'll bring it all the way to completion." So that's also

you should find ways to be free to be yourself.

You should also figure out ways to work well with other people. I mentioned before, we need people who are different than you. And my result is similar to you in the Quick Start and Follow Thru. So we need people like us in those two. But we also need people who are very different.

Mm-hmm.

When you realize that there are those other people out there, and together you guys will get better results when you're working together, it helps. It can help you be more patient with yourself and the situation. It can help others be more patient with you when you're very different. So spot those times and try to identify when it's a conative difference. You know, it's two of you who come at planning very differently. Talk to them, and hand parts off, and take parts from them. So when they're stuck because they're out of ideas, and it's a part of a project that is in the idea-generating phase, they should give you a call and lean on you, because that's so natural for you. Any questions on that, or can you think of times recently where you maybe have been able to work with somebody who had a different strength and it was helpful?

Oh, all the time. Absolutely. And it was liberating to hear that I don't have to finish everything that I start. Like, yeah, that's right—I don't have to. The idea of sunk cost sits with me a lot.

Yeah.

But it's true that there are lots of things that in the process of trying new things, I am learning and growing. So whether the project itself was successful or not, I have grown because of it. But knowing that there are folks with greater Follow Thru or with other strengths that I work with that provide that depth, provide that full picture that I don't always have the energy or the expertise to go and get—it just creates a better result overall.

All right. Well, the last one that we haven't talked about, the last Action Mode, is Implementor. It's how we deal with the tactile, tangible, three-dimensional world. So the name isn't Implementor as in how you implement, carry things out. That's more like the Follow Thru. But it's really the physical world. So you are a three in Implementor, which means you envision solutions. Your problem-solving is less about physically constructing and building solutions—like physical building, creating stuff that you can touch and taste and feel—and more about the ideas, the conceptual conception of it. And that doesn't mean it isn't real. I mean, words are real, but they're not tactile. So your communication style would be more storytelling with words and talking, rather than... It's even hard for me to demonstrate, because I'm also similar to you in Implementor. But some people communicate using props. They want to show it, not just talk about it.

Mm-hmm.

But you're very much an envision-it, imagine-it kind of person in the way you tackle problems. My guess is at work, that would be more called on than the physical parts. Is that true for you?

In this current job, yeah, we're working on our health improvement plan. It's a multi-year plan for the state, and it is a lot of that. Let's talk about what we want, how we want stakeholders to feel as they're coming together, how we want people to feel empowered to engage in this process and use this space to come up with shared goals together. And I have a lot of fun in that space, trying to think about how we're using language and storytelling to facilitate a really fruitful conversation, but also a multi-year implementation plan.

It rings true. So those are all four of your Kolbe Action Mode strengths. More thoughts from you? Does it resonate? Does it sound like, "Yeah, that's me," or were there parts of it that you weren't as sure about?

Absolutely, yeah, it sounds like me. Absolutely. And the hands-on, the building—yeah, I don't really care for building things. I appreciate people who can build with their hands and make really fun things. I just have never really been that into it. And thank you for explaining that side too with the Fact Finder, the four. Because I had this notion that it meant that I didn't care about data or that I didn't have patience for data. But what you're describing rings more true to who I believe I am, who I know I am—that I go and I look for data, and I get to the depth that I need to get to, to get the answers that I'm looking for. I'm looking for bullet points. I'm looking for streamlined information. But I do go to a certain depth to get some information to take the action to start the project. So yeah, it all just braids together to create this really neat picture. So thank you.

And the more you're in meetings and situations with people who really are initiating Fact Finders—especially if it's a room full of them and you're the only one who has a different result—you are the most important person in the room now. But they don't necessarily know it.

Right.

Because it's so natural for them. It's like, "Hey, we're all doing the same thing. Jenna's the outlier, so she must be the one that's wrong." But they need you. And they need to empower your voice so that you can stand up and say, "Hey, I think we've all got it. I know that if you had another week, you could do more research and we could go even further in depth, but that's not going to help us get to the solution we need to get to." Some of it, I'd say, is figuring out what are the constructive ways to bring that voice to the table—helping people understand "I'm not challenging you in terms of..." If I say, "That's enough data, let's stop," you're not telling them that they are wrong to naturally go for more, to get more and share more information. But what you're saying is, we're just different in this regard. You're not better than them in general. They're not better than you. It's just you have different strengths, and there are times when your strength needs to be brought forward and relied on. So I've worked with people in government enough to know, generally speaking, initiating Quick Start is not set free. You've kind of alluded to the fact that that's not necessarily what you get to do most of the time. How do you get to use that idea-generating powerhouse? At work? Well, in general. I mean, maybe at work—maybe you find ways at work and you're like, "Hey, it's not traditional, but I do this and that helps me." But my guess is you have other outlets.

Yeah. With my passion for community building and really looking for ways to build neighborhoods and to build stronger social connections on the ground, I have taken it upon myself to start a neighborhood organizing effort, just with my block. To really try to get to know my neighbors first and foremost—because I personally want to live on a block where my kids know our neighbors, and I also, as a parent, my husband and I, we want help raising our kids. It's a lot of work. And just knowing that my neighbors have eyes on them when they're riding their scooters or their bikes around the neighborhood. So it starts from this place of need as parents, and a need for wanting more social connection. But I started—I hosted a potluck. We did a yard sale. We did a neighborhood cleanup. We toured a local nonprofit together. In the last couple of months, we've really been getting to know our neighbors, and it has been a ton of fun. But it's been a lot of just Quick Start—like,"Okay, now let's do this, and now let's organize this, and who wants to go here?" It's been a lot of fun.

Well, good. I'm glad you're finding a place to use that other than just work. And that's where I was saying—this is part of who you are all the time. It's not just a work thing or a home thing. A lot of times people think of it as, "Well, it's just about how I operate at work," but it's all the time. So yeah, you'll need to do that. It's not just your personal life, but very specifically your family life where Kolbe stuff comes in. I know you and your husband are different in a couple of regards with respect to Kolbe. So for instance, with Follow Thru, he's a six, so it's in that mid-range in terms of planning and systems. But it's more than you in terms of being the planner person. Does that sound right? That he's the planner? Or do you do more of the planning for the family?

I do more of the planning. Or I guess I do a lot of the idea generation, and then he... I'll say,"You know, we need to get a new lawnmower." And then he loves to do the research and all the features and the pricing, and "this is what we're going to use this credit card for the points." Like, just really lining it all up. So I'll have the "We need to do this thing," and then he'll go really deep on it.

Well, yeah. And I know that he's an eight in Fact Finder. So that also makes sense that he would be the one doing the research, getting the pricing information, and all that. There's the planning part—the idea part, I guess, of the planning.

Mm-hmm.

You kind of described that where it's, "Oh, I have this idea, so let's do it." But I didn't hear a plan from you in your very brief example. But you still might do more of the planning. I would say to the extent possible, maybe get him to do more of that. Again, he's not an initiating Follow Thru, so I wouldn't expect him to do really comprehensive calendar and everything. But I will say that—and actually I haven't mentioned this—the Kolbe results don't vary by gender, age, race that we've seen at all. But there are some times—whether it's a stereotype, or sometimes it's just expectations—and I think there's a common, not universal, but there's a common expectation sometimes that the woman will do planning for a family. That's not the right role for you in your family. Between the two of you, he's more of the person to come up with the calendar and when are we going to do things. Sometimes budgeting is a plan. "Hey, here's how I want to organize finances." So he's more of the organizing person. Now, with finances—that's another place. I want to take gender stereotypes out of this. He's more detailed. He's more the person who's going to look at the investments and know the numbers and do the research and go, "What about this and what about that?"

That's exactly right.

That's great because of his Fact Finder—not, "Well, that's something that a guy should do."

Right.

Forget about that. But similarly, you are not the person who—I would say—should take the lead on organizing all the family stuff and, "Hey, let's color code things." You've got two kids. How old are they?

Five and two.

Five and two, so they're pretty young. So in my house, my wife is an initiating Follow Thru. She is very much a planner and organizer. We have four kids. They're not that young anymore. The youngest just graduated from college, but she has places for stuff. She color coordinates a calendar that is hung up on the wall that we change. Even now that we don't have kids at home and there's not quite as much going on as there used to be, we still have that. That's a natural role for her. That's not a natural role for you. Natural role for you is to have a spark like,"Hey, I saw this thing is going on this weekend. Let's check it out. We've never done that before." So do that kind of stuff. And, you know, look, you have busy lives. I don't know how busy your husband is. Maybe he doesn't have time for the planning stuff either, and he's not an initiating Follow Thru like my wife. So don't overwhelm him with all of that, because that wouldn't be a great role if he goes too far that direction. But just something to keep in mind between the two of you.

It's funny because this is putting some context to the conversation we were having last week. So we just had our birthday party for our five-year-old. He's turning six in a couple of weeks. So we had a birthday party with all of his little friends from school, and I went deep on the planning—buying the things, renting the facility, doing the invites. And at the end... we were in the final stages of planning it and I just said,"Is there anything else I'm missing? Can you... Is there anything else? Can you just help me?" And he was like, "No, I think you got it." It was basically me saying,"I don't like doing this." I'm doing it because I have the vision and I'm putting it all together.

Yeah.

When it comes to the kids, that's my natural role. But yeah, other places in life with organizing family vacations, and booking of cars, and hotels, and finances—very natural for him.

Well, good. So thank you for that. That's very funny. Well, I'm glad that he's doing it in those other areas.

Yes.

And yeah, but another overlay is where your interest lies. So if you're more interested in doing parties with the kids or doing other kid things, then you'll do it. But you will still... it'll help you if you teach your kids a little sense of humor about this, because you're the kind of mom that's going to forget stuff. I'm sorry, you just are. Because you didn't start with a plan, and a system, and a checklist that has everything covered. And, "Oh, I pull it out from last year's birthday party, and look, here's the system that I'm going to use, and I'll make it a little bit better this year." That's not how you operate. But you're going to come up with great ideas. They're going to have parties that no one would have thought about. "Oh, what an amazing theme." So you'll have this great theme because you brainstormed that. And then there will be these two things, it's like, "Oh yeah, but I forgot to do this," or "I didn't make that phone call."

I literally forgot the knife to cut the cake. Like, yes.

Yeah. Okay. There you go. Whereas my wife would be more, "Oh no, having the knife, that would be on the checklist of—"

Exactly.

"Hey, we're doing this away from home, so what all are we going to bring so that everything is just right?"

Love it.

Okay, so we talked about a whole bunch of stuff. Jenna, can you think of something that you've learned, or that you want to put into practice, or something maybe you're going to do differently than what you've been doing?

I really like this idea of asking my husband to help with more of the planning. I want to figure out how to take that stress off of me. And, because I didn't really realize, I guess—it provides me a lot of joy to come up with a party idea and plan the party, but I don't have the joy when it's about remembering the knife or the cake. So I want to figure out how to strike that balance a little bit. But also when it comes to work, what I've really appreciated about this conversation is the piece about the Fact Finding and how I work. I work in an organization that is rooted in data and rooted in evidence-based best practices. And knowing that my strengths do have an important purpose at the organization, I will intentionally show up to continue to celebrate the scientists that I get to work with every single day, and the doctors that I get to work with every single day. To know that I really appreciate all of their research and their life practice. And at the same time, find new ways to advocate for myself and to provide some light and to shed some perspective on the things that I can bring to support the work and really lift the message out of the organization. So excited to practice that a little bit.

Well, great. I'm glad to hear that.

Yeah. So thank you.